Smile... It Confuses People

Menis · Veteran Post Master

Ok...

audiem · Wielder of the sunglasses

welcome back menis :D

well, you should know venders items stay listed for 30 days and a further 30 days in the stockroom, if a vender is inactive for certain amount of time it will be deleted :)

secondly, being a council member who is not active, isnt really in the best interest of the guild and is not helping it in anyway :), im sure if you were to be an active p-art of swg again, arrangments could be made.

Menis · Veteran Post Master

Although I do respect your opinion on the council matter. It appears that nobody was informed of the fact I was leaving for 2-3 months and had informed the guild leader of such (and she was ok with it). This indicates that a decision was made without everyone having all the facts in the matter.

I could tear your reply up even further, but I'm trying to be civil about a situation which appears to be a misunderstanding.

Romizzi · Onion

Menis wrote:

I could tear your reply up even further, but I'm trying to be civil

I could punch you in the face and really hurt you, but I won't because I'm not an indtimidating and threatening person :)

-- Edited by Romizzi at 22:06, 2007-10-23

Menis · Veteran Post Master

Exactly

alastrina · Guild support

menis wrote

It appears that nobody was informed of the fact I was leaving for 2-3 months and had informed the guild leader of such (and she was ok with it). This indicates that a decision was made without everyone having all the facts in the matter.

A: if u wanted everyone to be informed about your time table u should have send them a mail .

B: i am ok with anyone leaving for what ever time they want and are ofcourse free to come back when they please, as stated somewere in the rules KS is not a prison.

C to expect that nothing changes in 3 months is very naive as u well know. The dicision to remove u as council member was made with the knowlage that u were offline for over 3 months, and that in the time u were online(after your first leave or second) u didn't attend any council meeting ( and before u cry timezone u didn't miss any when u were active playing so imo that read as not intrested.)

And with no word if u were returning what so ever the disicion was made to replace your spot with a person who is active and has the opportunity to actually be a representative of KS.

PS maybe someone should tell einia hes no longer mayor perhaps he'd be surprised as well

-- Edited by alastrina at 22:37, 2007-10-23

Menis · Veteran Post Master

I informed you directly of when I'd be returning. It was not over 3 months, was under it (which I stated 2-3 months when I mailed you). It has in fact been less than 3 months since leaving (August 5, 2007 - October 23, 2007), not over 3 (only 1 break prior to this one which I also informed everyone about).

Also the missed meetings you refer to, I do believe I informed you prior to them I wouldn't be able to attend via ingame mail, for which we held one after I said I'd be back one time since there wasn't enough on for the scheduled time anyways. Also another meeting was held at Zilar's house around the mustafar table (large house behind the mall) which wasn't there prior to taking the only other break I did previously (It was behind City Hall prior to that). As far as I know, I missed maybe 1-2 meetings max the entire time I've been council. Which seems to be a decent record considering the length of time I've been a member. To say I attended none after taking that break isn't accurate, but considering we always had 2-3 who didn't show each meeting I can see where you confused me with others in that regard.

-- Edited by Menis at 00:37, 2007-10-24

audiem · Wielder of the sunglasses

in alas, defence, if i recall correctly ( or incorrectly) the removal of soem council members was decesion made but the current council members and so was the decision of the current council members to recruit members, in the best interest to improve the guild

Martijn · Forum Troller

I think discussing this with forum replies doesnt work

Menis and i had a lenghtly discussion ingame about this. I think its best to have a counsil meeting and share our point of views so both parties (so to speak) can explain what happend.
And after that we will see if something needs to be done/what needs to be done.

I have no prefference for a day except not fridays

Romizzi · Onion

I know you keep saying Aug 5th as last date, but just logging in once a week to read mail/check vendor is hardly active. I think real activity was several months before that.
By continually holding open council positions such as tale, einia, devon, etc etc and yourself, we were constantly left with a deffecit within the council for the agreed council member numbers. Yes, I know it had been done before and we had seen the degenerative results it brought.

So a decision was made unanimously by the entire (remaining active) council to remove inactives.

I think it was quite fair to allow active and helpfull members of the guild to take part in the councils decisions, rather than let it decompose due to lack of activity.
We can't all be expected to 'pause' the game while you take a 3 month break and the guild declines.

As a result, the city has had a major overhaul thanks to the re appointed mayors jibblett and now Pendarric (also an innevitable decision despite our fondness of Einia, and I'm sure he understands the reason for the decision)

In turn the city is attractive, we show ourselves in public, actively recruit new members and KS and Amber Ridge are well known and respected.
These things simply can't be acheived by people who don't play.

-- Edited by Romizzi at 23:53, 2007-10-23

audiem · Wielder of the sunglasses

i like the idea of a meeting

Menis · Veteran Post Master

Romizzi wrote:

I know you keep saying Aug 5th as last date, but just logging in once a week to read mail/check vendor is hardly active. I think real activity was several months before that.
By continually holding open council positions such as tale, einia, devon, etc etc and yourself, we were constantly left with a deffecit within the council for the agreed council member numbers. Yes, I know it had been done before and we had seen the degenerative results it brought.

So a decision was made unanimously by the entire (remaining active) council to remove inactives.

I think it was quite fair to allow active and helpfull members of the guild to take part in the councils decisions, rather than let it decompose due to lack of activity.
We can't all be expected to 'pause' the game while you take a 3 month break and the guild declines.

As a result, the city has had a major overhaul thanks to the re appointed mayors jibblett and now Pendarric (also an innevitable decision despite our fondness of Einia, and I'm sure he understands the reason for the decision)

In turn the city is attractive, we show ourselves in public, actively recruit new members and KS and Amber Ridge are well known and respected.
These things simply can't be acheived by people who don't play.

-- Edited by Romizzi at 23:53, 2007-10-23

Sorry Martyn, I know I agreed to a council meeting to discuss this issue but at this time I don't think having me in the same room as all of you is a good idea. So I'll do it here for now.

In response to the above :

I attended all but maybe (and I mean max) 2 meetings my entire time on council up till my break, for which I sent notice on those occassions. And the 2 months + 18 days I took off from the game is hardly a comparison to the length of time any of the previously mentioned members were away (some on multiple occassions). I can see how having several inactive council members is harmful, but unlike those in the past I wasn't given the benefit of the doubt on returning (which I made clear before I took the break). So, the term 'inactive' does not apply in this case as I gave prior notice to taking a break and the estimated length of said break. Taking a scheduled break from something is a vacation.

Also stating there was some issue(s) with me either not playing as much as others or me playing at times that suited my schedule/timezone rather than yours, that should have been discussed with me during that time period. Since it wasn't, I don't see that was an important issue.

I totally understand the council's point of view on the matter : Inactive members, issues with the guild, uncertain as to my game status, etc. With those factors I see why the decision was made. I just don't agree with the method and aftermath of such. I have nothing against anyone... only the situation and to have insults and rude comments thrown at me by people I consider friends is painful. If I did something so bad to warrant being treated this way please let me know because it seems some people have had an issue with me for some time and for the life of me I can't figure out what I could have done.

However my point of view is different : I pay for a game and come online not because I liked said game (everyone knows my feelings about the NGE) it was because of KS and still is. I am willing to eat the money just to be able to chat with all of you and always have. So to take a needed break from everything only to come back to find those same people don't want/need me to continue what I did for ages hurts. Had I had some kinda warning or at least a forum post/ingame mail waiting for me (I still checked these forums regularly) stating the reasoning behind the deal and an offer to come back if I started playing again I'd have been satisfied. But to be discarded without the courtesy of telling me and having to find out when I checked my character sheet is like saying "thanks for all the time and effort you put in to help KS, but go screw yourself". Then to post here to find out the issue and have snide remarks thrown at me by a person I totally respect hurts even more.

Due to this, I don't think it's a wise idea to have us gather in 1 place to discuss matters till some of this is resolved.

P.S. In response to me taking a previous break from the game : I never thought I'd have to explain why I had to do that, but if I'm gonna have it thrown at me as some sorta reason for all this, I'm gonna entertain you all with why.

Febuary of this year My parents went thru some very serious issues. Long story short, my mother was in the ICU hooked up to a ventilator for a week and wasn't expected to survive. During that time my Dad was unable to work, so I took it upon myself to step up and do everything I could to help them. I stayed there and organized/paid their bills, I even had to go so far as to sell most of my possessions in order to make sure if my mother made it she'd have a house to come back to. So the thought/financial ability to maintain the $16 a month for SWG was the furthest thing from 'important' on my list. This was also part of the factor as to why I took this 2nd break. I needed time to deal with other issues and clear my head. So if you wanna throw all this back at me then feel free. I hope it makes you all feel better.

-- Edited by Menis at 01:29, 2007-10-24

-- Edited by Menis at 02:36, 2007-10-24

Martijn · Forum Troller

Menis wrote:

However my point of view is different : I pay for a game and come online not because I liked said game (everyone knows my feelings about the NGE) it was because of KS and still is. I am willing to eat the money just to be able to chat with all of you and always have.

I dont think you need to be counsil member to chat with the guild and have a good time.
But somehow i get the feeling that you think not being a counsil member makes plp somewhat less then the counsil members

I know you have the feeling that you got promised that you could take a break and come back as a counsil member. But to say the counsil is totally unfair in replacing a member that has not loggin in over 2 months. And didnt do much more then checking mails before that is just strange imo.
I have spend an evening trying to make you see how the (new) counsil looks at the situation, and all you kept saying is that it needs to be corrected. So i propose a meeting and now you again say:
Due to this, I don't think it's a wise idea to have us gather in 1 place to discuss matters till some of this is resolved.

Tbh i think you are being unreasonable now.
Yes you had a rough time in real life. But so did some other members of KS (and the counsil).
And yes you earned the position back in the time you where an active KS member and a active member of the guild.
But this doesnt make you a counsil member for life.

It is not a demotion to be a KS member ! Everyone in KS is treathed as equals counsil member or not.
A KS counsilmember is a KS member just like any other KS member nothing more nothing less

So my advise in this is lets all stop this silly discussion and start playing a game we all (dis)like and have fun with each other instead of having arguments over silly counsil member postions.

For me the discussion stop here and now. Unless we can all have a meeting and discuss this like the "wise" plp we pretent to be. biggrin

Now i need to get back to work have a nice day all :P

Jibblett · Sage

I dont think anyones having a go at you Menis, but typing words on a page never does come across correctly.

The situation was probably not handled in the best manner, but other than apologise I dont see what else we can do about it.
I was unaware you absence was 'temporary', but then again I didnt ask either.
Its good to see you back and I'm glad that things have improved enough in RL for you to be able to come back to us.

I really dont see how this has spiralled into a near argument, I think we should all just accept that we would have approached things differently given the chance and move on.
At the end of the day, as Mart says, council member or not, your in KS because of KS and everyone is equal.

Lets go kill some stuff?

-- Edited by Jibblett at 14:27, 2007-10-24

Romizzi · Onion

Menis wrote:

Romizzi wrote:

In response to the above :

I attended all but maybe (and I mean max) 2 meetings my entire time on council up till my break, for which I sent notice on those occassions. And the 2 months + 18 days I took off from the game is hardly a comparison to the length of time any of the previously mentioned members were away (some on multiple occassions).

Also stating there was some issue(s) with me either not playing as much as others or me playing at times that suited my schedule/timezone rather than yours, that should have been discussed with me during that time period. Since it wasn't, I don't see that was an important issue.

I totally understand the council's point of view on the matter : Inactive members, issues with the guild, uncertain as to my game status, etc. With those factors I see why the decision was made. I just don't agree with the method and aftermath of such. I have nothing against anyone... only the situation and to have insults and rude comments thrown at me by people I consider friends is painful. If I did something so bad to warrant being treated this way please let me know because it seems some people have had an issue with me for some time and for the life of me I can't figure out what I could have done.

However my point of view is different : I pay for a game and come online not because I liked said game (everyone knows my feelings about the NGE) it was because of KS and still is. I am willing to eat the money just to be able to chat with all of you and always have. So to take a needed break from everything only to come back to find those same people don't want/need me to continue what I did for ages hurts. Had I had some kinda warning or at least a forum post/ingame mail waiting for me (I still checked these forums regularly) stating the reasoning behind the deal and an offer to come back if I started playing again I'd have been satisfied. But to be discarded without the courtesy of telling me and having to find out when I checked my character sheet is like saying "thanks for all the time and effort you put in to help KS, but go screw yourself". Then to post here to find out the issue and have snide remarks thrown at me by a person I totally respect hurts even more.

Due to this, I don't think it's a wise idea to have us gather in 1 place to discuss matters till some of this is resolved.

P.S. In response to me taking a previous break from the game : I never thought I'd have to explain why I had to do that, but if I'm gonna have it thrown at me as some sorta reason for all this, I'm gonna entertain you all with why.

Febuary of this year My parents went thru some very serious issues. Long story short, my mother was in the ICU hooked up to a ventilator for a week and wasn't expected to survive. During that time my Dad was unable to work, so I took it upon myself to step up and do everything I could to help them. I stayed there and organized/paid their bills, I even had to go so far as to sell most of my possessions in order to make sure if my mother made it she'd have a house to come back to. So the thought/financial ability to maintain the $16 a month for SWG was the furthest thing from 'important' on my list. This was also part of the factor as to why I took this 2nd break. I needed time to deal with other issues and clear my head. So if you wanna throw all this back at me then feel free. I hope it makes you all feel better.

-- Edited by Menis at 01:29, 2007-10-24

-- Edited by Menis at 02:36, 2007-10-24

Bah, since you quoted me and replied 'in response to the above' I feel compelled to defend myself instead of letting it lie.

Yes, others had had longer periods of absence in the past, the point I was making was that just because it had been done in the past, doesn't mean it has to continue to be that way forever more - especially when we've discovered it to be harmful.

Of people are allowed to take breaks, and even be innactive for periods of time, time zones inclusive. Yes, when you were 'active' you were usually always on the same time as the rest of us. Regardless, time zones/circumstances exist, Ycal and Laredo are good examples of that, so no it isn't a problem. But then neither of them are council members.

You're problems are the method and aftermath. Ok I agree with you, had I known you were definitely coming back I may have voted differantly. I can only apologise.
Aftermath? Im not sure what you mean by that... this discussion maybe?

Rude comments and insults by people and people having an issue with you for some time.. again since you quoted me, do you mean me?

You checked these forums regularly, why no posts? Especially since you only play swg for KS I would have thought you might have kept in touch via these boards - particularly if you have the time to check them once a week.

I understand about your RL problems and I sympathise.Had a few myself recently. All I can say is I'm glad things are improved enough for you to come back and I really hope things remain so, so that you can stay.

Menis · Veteran Post Master

No Romi, the snide remarks / insults statement wasn't directed towards you in particular. Only the first 2 small sections were in response to your post.

Sorry for the confusion there smile

As for the no posts, you should notice by my avatar that I rarely ever post here. I'm not a forum person. If it's something dealing directly with me I will comment, but I have never been the type to post on the forum otherwise.

-- Edited by Menis at 17:28, 2007-10-24

Romizzi · Onion

Ok all fair, then I'm done :)
Seeya in game to kill stuff!

alastrina · Guild support

well first off im positive no one here posted with the intend to post "insults and rude comments" but then your posts can be interpreted as "less then nice"

as for your Council position u were not "replaced" all current council members were added to the council with u still on the list of members" (u can see this yourself as u should have mails with invites to meetings ect.)

How ever on the meeting of sunday the 15 of july ( a date u claim te be still active) the subject was raised that the forum posts and some ingame mails (new members mail ect) still had Tale,Einia,Devon and U as listed as contact persons.

In order to prevent any confussion about this we voted to removed the names above from these lists.

but i agree with martyn if u wish to discuss this i'll be happy to call a meeting.

PS
(i can not believe any of the council members including myself would have removed u on the 15 th of july if u were even just somewhat active.
So either the 6 of us are greatly mistaken and u somehow logged on arround all of us or your time table of Aug- Oct is somewhat wrong.

Menis · Veteran Post Master

I attended the July 15th meeting, which as I recall didn't occur as scheduled and was rescheduled for the 22nd instead. On the 22nd of July you missed the rescheduled meeting. The 29th was the actual meeting and I was in attendance (refer to the paste of your guild mail below) :

*paste*
137031785
SWG.Europe-Infinity.alastrina
FW: Council meeting Sunday 29th
TIMESTAMP: 1138221008
sorry about sunday i simply forgot :D (only human after all :)

29th now pls 6 pm gmt :D

>
> Meeting all pls.
>
> few points nothing serious just want to talk about ...
>
> - council members devons gone, B seems no-active, tale is MIA ect.
>
> -members count seems very very quiet in guild lately (will try and update members list)
>
> - factorys in town...
>
> -city funding recap :P forgot to mail it last meeting so i'll add it to this one .
>
> greetings
*end paste*

I would assume any meeting having to do with me being 'inactive' or the subject of my removal would have occured between August 5 and October 23... considering I was still a member when I logged off late evening of August 4th after you returned my mail that same day.

-- Edited by Menis at 20:47, 2007-10-24

Jibblett · Sage

cant we just leave it and move on?
This is really not achieving anything

alastrina · Guild support

ignores jibbs advice
and posts

Martijn · Forum Troller

Jibblett wrote:

cant we just leave it and move on?
This is really not achieving anything

seems i agree with jibb for once :P

alastrina · Guild support

btw the 25th is a typo should say the 15th :D

Menis · Veteran Post Master

Seems rather off considering this... so if there was a meeting on July 15th that I did miss, your mail below would explain why.

-- Edited by Menis at 20:57, 2007-10-24

alastrina · Guild support

yes i changed the clock on my computer and hacked SWG to make the date change so it would match, u caught me.

Menis · Veteran Post Master

Well, I certainly didn't do it either so this has gotta be some weird thing happening which explains the misunderstanding aspect of my claims.

alastrina · Guild support

post that screeny again with your cursor on it for full display like mine, could be something very odd here.

Menis · Veteran Post Master

Here ya go... my bad, clipped it too far. Reposting.

I know why it's odd now... you originally typo'd that me and Einia were being removed but it was in fact Devon and Einia. That explains the confusion here, because I attended that meeting where we discussed removing them and had stated that I wished we could keep them due to sentimental reason, etc. Also the real date typo was supposed to read the 29th as the date of the meeting, not the 25th. Which was mentioned in my earlier post.

-- Edited by Menis at 21:47, 2007-10-24

-- Edited by Menis at 21:51, 2007-10-24

alastrina · Guild support

that just proves your mailbox works as i send that to u, u would have gotten it even if inactive.

humor me and post with timestamp the mail i reply to your notice of leaving the first screen u posted.

Menis · Veteran Post Master

Aighty